Talk:The Enclave

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Urban area(s)

The total land area and density for our urban population needs to be about that of Alma, MI (just a bit denser and smaller). This is putting the dwarves underground.Ric (talk) 15:00, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Food and producers.

Presently we are supporting 625 individuals per non-wild square miles. This exceeds early middle ages production by about 3.5 fold. But that was discussed in population size earlier. I am presently concerned with proportion of the population making food. A square mile is 640 acres. An acre was roughly defined as what one man could plow in a day. Give or proverbial farmer 20 days to prep his field ie 20 acres. Make the average agrarian family size 6. Our 32 acres in development require a working population of ~6144. The balance can be city dwellers.Ric (talk) 14:28, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Here there be Orcs!

This page will need to be split several times as it develops. For example: We have noted the presence of orcs. As we get more details, then the orcs will be spawned to a page of their own.


Would be cool to leave out the elves; good adventure hook later. -kyle
Good idea, just would have to use the magical DM power of ignoring continuity to change the world. As this is an old ill-remembered campaign, it wouldn't be two hard to employ.
The argument was put forth that an essentially immortal species would make forgotten lore difficult.Ric (talk) 14:28, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Other concerns addressed by kyle above

These are working notes. So all those questions are truly holes that need to be filled in. These are elements I consider background and not plot-related directly. Therefore, all the help I can get fleshing the world out in detail with these bones in place would be grand.
Special note about the fighter hobbyists. That is more or less the idea I had. Higher level fighters will be scarce to none. However, a tradition of readiness in such isolation would be expected. Thusly, we will have a semi-trained militia, to which the arena culture is reinforcement.

Population and Area occupied

We are to the point that the Enclave needs be roughly mapped or its boundaries described in fair detail. We also need to fix our point in history as to just how long the foraging has been going on. I am leaning towards one generationish from our initial conception of this realm. Enough that the economy is shifting in support of this activity, but short enough there is novelty and not an entire culture shift. I am keen on the majority of the population happy as recluses. However, the addition of the birth control strictures introduced by Kyle does give us a seed for our first colonists. GM 07:24, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
Ok, first stab at rounding out the area and population of The Enclave. I have always put into my mind we had roughly 10,000 inhabitants. I am working the numbers now to see if that is feasible. Initial research shows about 9 bushels per year per mouth and 10 bushels per good year for early medieval periods. Advances with crop rotation in later periods increased effective harvests per year. 2-3 bushels per acre per harvest were held on reserve for seed. Net production would be about 7 bushels per acre per harvest. Effectively there would need be 1 acre per mouth in cultivation of some sort to keep 1 person fed, given two harvest per year with strict management. The Enclave is nothing if not strict about food and population. I would increase the harvests to 15 bushels per acre due to magic/tech combination and the education level of the population of The Enclave. Net yield would be 25 bushels per cultivated acre per year. 1 acre could support 2 people with some room for emergencies and inefficiencies. These numbers were derived from research based on yields for 800-1000 AD and then increased for minor advances in tech and the application of both magic and education. The original numbers were for a marginal existence of a peasant. The population of The Enclave as whole is going to trend much more towards a middle-class state of existence. There are poor and there are wealthy, but the mean is much better than historical data for our world. This is fantasy, make it fun! So I am thinking that each person, on average, has access to the equivalent of 12.5 bushels of miscellaneous grain per year which puts them about 40% above poverty/survival. For simplicity the acreage calculated above will not be modified for different crops/livestock, but will be the base for calculation of the minimal land cultivation for our population at the desired quality of life. Bottom line: We need 1 acre per person cultivated. We would need 16 square miles of agricultural space to provide for a population of 10,000. This is total area. Some wiggle-room exists. The dwarves may cultivate a 1 acre cavern with fungus on shelves stacked 5 high thus creating 5 acres of cultivation. Though we must remember some forested land for the druids, gnomes, and carefully tended game. Could we fit 32 square miles (20,480 acres) in a valley as we imagine and keep it in the realm of willing disbelief?GM 09:46, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
I have not time to consider all your logic above, but 32 square miles would just be a square <6 miles on a side. Big, but perhaps not overly. I think we stipulated that the Enclave was also shielded from view above by magical means. I think we have ~28% dwarves and they are all living underground, so could perhaps reduce your 32 square miles by 28%  :) Kyle 22:54, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
The area was selected based on food growth and wooded land. The reduction for the dwarves in above-ground surface area would be only equivalent to their own food production capacity. Being a valley, we'd certainly be longer than wider Lets go with approximately ~3.5 miles of readily developed land generally N-S and ~9 miles in length E-W. This would give the most consistent exposure to sun (site selection by the ancients who set the place up). Most of the woodlands would be on the southern side as it would have less direct sunlight. Any shielding from above that may have been required at the cataclysm no longer exists and currently there is no air power to worry about.GM 14:52, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
The high side of The River is on the east side. The River leaves The Enclave on the western side.GM 16:58, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
Good thinking about the E-W axis being the long axis. I happened to put the source of The River in the west (at Pine Slope) and the sink in the east. RE pop. size & Enclave area, San Marino is 24 miles^2 with 30000 people and ~17% arable land (but they have trade). Some quick reading on minimum viable population size indicates ~5000 is sufficient for many species. Since we have 4 species (not counting half-orcs), our population may be a bit low. Necessary population size for effective retention of cultural knowledge is another matter. Kyle 18:03, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
The cultures have very much merged. A downside to the consolidation of survivors in such a limited quantity and space. Maybe the population will need be bumped. Most of the geographical structures I was looking at in the generated worlds ended up with about 60 miles in length, just to account for the terrain needed to level out with surroundings. If we bump the population to 20,000 then we have the population for self sustaining for all but the gnomes and half-orcs. The half-orcs should not be self-sustaining. The gnomes could be a plot point. Half-orcs are likely to be bred out notwithstanding much [half] racial pride or immigration. If we make the width 4.5 x 11 miles then we have 49.5 sq miles. This will net us less undeveloped land. ~32 square would be used for food of some sort. 17.5 could be wildlands. Mind that we can still use slopes for wildsGM 19:01, 19 May 2012 (EDT)

Found notes

Transcription of publicly available notes I found with regards to the Enclave:

  • The Council
    • Consists of representatives of each race
      • Dwarf

***Elf (Would be cool to leave out the elves; good adventure hook later. -kyle) Addressed.

      • Gnome
      • Human
      • Halfling

*Temples -- nothing defined Strongly Stubbed.

  • Guilds
    • Organized by basic class
      • Cleric -- Refer to temple (How many & which gods? -kyle)
      • Fighters (Really 'fighters' given enclave's isolation? More like fighting hobbyists? -kyle)
        • No organized guild -- there is a practice (non-lethal) arena, competitive association.
        • Advancement
          • A fighter may gain an experience level with the assistance of a mentor
          • Mentor must exceed player level by at least 2 levels.
          • Training will last 1d/level * 10 days
          • Cost of training will be 100gp/level of the instructor. (Barter for services and goods usually accepted, provided need)
          • During the training period the trainees non-training activity is limited.
        • Community organized monthly contests of fighting prowess hosted
        • Culminates in annual festival of 4 days length
      • Monks
        • 1 month a year to be spent in service at the monastery
        • Advancement
          • 1 tenday / level in meditation, self-analysis, and training ending with successful Int check
          • temporary damage to Con, Str, and Dex for reasons of pushing limits and self-deprivation Not needed now.
      • Paladins -- See appropriate temple

***Psionicists (We probably don't need these guys...enough going on as it is. -kyle) Banned.

      • Rangers
        • Loose association Unnecessary differentiation at this point.
      • Sorcerers
        • No formal organization
        • 'Focus' Groups
          • Sessions meet sporadically (at best 1d6 / 2 times per week)
          • Sessions have a 40% change of not being attended
          • Sessions run 25gp each to participate
        • Must attend 2 sessions/level to advance
        • Spell acquisition
          • Need to attend group meetings to gain player's choice of spells-- 1d(spell level) sessions to reliably learn a new spell
          • Otherwise, spells are DM-assigned as game develops. No system in place for this style of magic. Scrubbed.
      • 'Thieves'/Rogues
        • Scouting and espionage (S&E) sponsored by council
        • 100gp/level for training by S&E through level 7
        • Volunteer as instructor for 1 tenday / level to advance thereafter
        • Specific trade tools available from here as long as character is in good standing with the council
      • Wizards
        • Organized Guild
          • Prominent members
            • Master
            • Archivist
            • Researchers
            • Tool Crib Keeper (Magic item cache and study)
            • Specialist for each non-evil school
          • Contributions mandatory
            • Common spells available at 100gp/lvl for scribing
            • Training available at 100gp/session
              • 1d4 days per session
              • 1 session per lvl to advance
            • Magic items obtained by the wizard need to be turned into the guild for study. The length of time the item is kept varies with its power. 1 tenday per 1000 gp in value.
            • laboratory usage available for research for rental
  • Merchants
    • General
    • blacksmith
    • weaponsmith
    • armorsmith
  • Inns (more like pubs)
    • no lodging (no travelers)
    • typical fare; ale & pub grub
  • Calender
    • tenday based not weeks
      • Erstday
      • Twoday
      • Treday
      • Forday
      • Fifday
      • Sixday
      • Sevday
      • Eitday
      • Ninday
      • Hinday
    • 4 Tendays = 1 month
      • Erstwek
      • Secwek
      • Irdwek
      • Orwek
    • 10 months = 1 year (How very metric of you... -kyle)
    • 24 hours per day (Spoke too soon... -kyle)
    • split 12 light 12 dark

Look and feel

Many of the naming conventions and practices that i have alluded to or mentioned straight out have looked particularly structured and artificial. The Enclave is a planned society. Much of the plan may have molded, died, flew south, or changed in other ways, but in its essence a plan is at the foundation of it all. Consider this in naming conventions and cultural structure.GM 10:20, 17 May 2012 (EDT)